Before going to court, Yuan Jiang had never expected to be able to avoid the benefits of the Qingmiao Law.
Because the other party is accusing him of this crime, they will definitely find ways to prove that Yuan Jiang banned this clan law just for profit.
I just didn't expect that it would happen so quickly, and with just a few words, he would be pushed to this point.
We have to admit that these geniuses in the Northern Song Dynasty were able to switch careers to become scribes very quickly. Firstly, they were gifted. Secondly, law was a compulsory course for them. Finally, they all had experience as judges and in court debates.
The only thing he had to learn was the interrogation skills in court, which was very different from the officials trying cases. Fan Zhen also watched Zhang Fei fight one case after another, and he already knew the details by heart.
"Intent on resisting the court's policies?"
Fan Zhen said slowly, "Mr. Yuan, could you please explain in detail?"
Yuan Jiang said truthfully: "Usury has been rampant for more than a year or two, and they have not revised any clan laws to prohibit it. Now the court has just promulgated the Qingmiao Law, which stipulates a 2% interest rate, and they immediately agreed to a 1.5% interest rate based on clan laws. This is clearly a boycott of the Qingmiao Law."
After these words were spoken, many people looked doubtful.
It is not a one-day or two-day thing that usury has harmed people. Now that the imperial court wants to reform, you are giving such a low interest rate.
There must be something fishy here!
Fan Zhen asked: "Then according to what Yuan Xueshi said, if this clan law came from before the Qingmiao Law, would Yuan Xueshi still ban it?"
"I object."
Li Min suddenly stood up and said, "This is a hypothetical question, and the witness's answer is meaningless."
Fan Zhen immediately said: "This is not a hypothetical question, but it stems from the answer given by Yuan Xueshi just now. Moreover, it also concerns whether the clan law has the right to do so, which is also the key issue of this case."
"invalid objection!"
Zhang Fei looked at Yuan Jiang and said, "Please ask Master Yuan to answer Mr. Fan's question."
Li Min sat down depressed.
Yuan Jiang was sweating a little, thinking, this is really unfair, he can only ask and I can only answer, if we were arguing normally, how could I lose to him so easily. After hesitating for a while, he still answered: "Probably not."
Fan Zhen smiled and asked, "According to what Scholar Yuan said, the village has the right to set the interest rate for loans in the village."
Yuan Jiang was slightly embarrassed.
Fan Zhen waited patiently for the answer.
After a while, Yuan Jiang said, "I just said that I probably wouldn't stop them, but that doesn't mean they have the right to do so."
Fan Zhen asked again: "Does Master Yuan have the authority to allow them to do this?"
Yuan Jiang thought for a while and nodded, "I think so."
The four little golden men couldn't help but shake their heads slightly. Their answers were totally unconvincing and they were really powerless to resist!
The country gentlemen smiled proudly, as if victory was already waving to them.
That's it
"I have no problem for now."
Fan Zhen very gentlemanly gave the right to ask questions to Li Min. Although there was no clear rule in the royal court, everyone had a tacit understanding that they had to give the other party a chance to ask every question.
Li Min stood up and said, "Here is a loan contract with a 5% interest rate, which does not violate the law. If the village uses this contract to make a rule that the interest rate for loans in the village shall not be lower than this, will Master Yuan support it?"
Immediately, a court police officer came up and handed the three copies of the contract to Zhang Fei, Yuan Jiang and Fan Zhen respectively.
After reading it, Yuan Jiang shook his head and said, "I definitely won't support this."
Li Min asked, "Why?"
Yuan Jiang replied: "Although the contract stipulates a 5% interest rate, it also involves conversion. The repayer may have to pay nearly double the interest."
Li Min asked again: "Will Master Yuan forbid it?"
Yuan Jiang nodded. "If I knew, I would definitely forbid them to do this."
Li Min said: "But this contract is not illegal."
Yuan Jiang said: "I can also use government decrees to ban them, because this will seriously affect the governance of the government. After all, those wealthy and unkind landlords will not care about the people living on the streets. This needs to be borne by the government."
Li Min said: "But in response to Mr. Fan's question just now, Master Yuan said no. How should we understand this?"
Yuan Jiang said: "This is not contradictory. From the government's point of view, the people should be the priority. Mr. Fan just emphasized the interest rate of 1.5%, which is not against the law and is beneficial to the people. The government is of course happy to see it. However, this contract is obviously more conducive to the big landlords exploiting the people, so the government will naturally ban it."
Li Min said: "Can I understand this as the government has the right to prohibit, but it is just based on the other party's behavior."
Yuan Jiang nodded and said, "Yes."
Zhang Fei smiled with relief, thinking, it was okay, he didn't embarrass our escort.
What Fan Zhen asked was whether the gentry had the right to do this
What Li Min asked was, does the government have the right to prohibit them from doing so
Even if both are established at the same time, the government will naturally be the main one.
Li Min asked again, "Just now, Master Yuan said that he has been an official for forty years. During this period, has Master Yuan issued an order, or witnessed other officials issuing orders to prohibit people from doing things that are permitted by law?"
Yuan Jiang nodded and said, "I have seen it, and I have also issued orders to ban it. After all, the matters involved in laws and government orders are different."
Li Min continued to ask: "Then why did Master Yuan prohibit the interest agreed upon by the twenty-eight townships this time?"
Yuan Jiang replied: "I have already said this, because they did this to resist the court's policies, not for the benefit of the people."
"I wonder what basis Master Yuan has?"
"In fact, this is a common monopoly tactic used by merchants." Yuan Jiang said: "First, they use low interest rates to make the Qingmiao Law impossible to enforce. After the court abolishes the Qingmiao Law, they return to the previous high interest rates. The government will naturally not allow this to happen."
Many people frowned when they heard this. So this is what was going on. These big landlords are so cunning!
"Thank you for your answer, Master Yuan."
Li Min bowed and said to Zhang Fei, "Grand Judge, I have finished my questions."
Zhang Fei looked at Fan Zhen again.
Fan Zhen stood up and said, "Regarding the question that Li Erbi just mentioned, I would like to ask Judge Zhang for advice."
Zhang Fei was stunned for a moment and asked, "What's the problem?"
Fan Zhen said: "It is about whether the government has the right to prohibit behavior permitted by the law. This question involves judicial power, so I would like to ask Judge Zhang what he thinks."
Zhang Fei thought for a while and said, "Generally speaking, the government has no right to prohibit actions permitted by law unless there are special circumstances. This is also one of the reasons why the court established the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs. If the government does this, it must give sufficient reasons, otherwise it will also be subject to investigation by the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs.
However, I would also like to point out that the question asked by Li Min just now was not detailed enough. The question he asked is not explicitly stipulated in the law. Although interest is allowed by the law, the patriarchal law that stipulates interest and restricts the behavior of villagers is not specified in the law.
Of course, I am not biased towards the defendant when I say this. I just hope that everyone can clearly understand that the reason why our Royal Court is holding a hearing on this case is not to judge whether an act permitted by the law is legal, but whether an act that is neither prohibited nor permitted is legal. Because there is indeed a dispute here, the Royal Court will hold a hearing on this case. "
Li Min, Qiu Zhengwen and Lu Bangxing all looked embarrassed.
Although Zhang Fei explained himself and stated the reasons for opening the court session, he still helped them fill the loophole, which was obviously a favor to them.
The judicial principle of this feudal society is that for public power, anything is allowed unless prohibited by law, and for private rights, anything is prohibited unless authorized by law.
Therefore, Zhang Fei emphasized that this interest is absolutely allowed because the law has authorized it, but the clan system restricts the behavior of the villagers, and the law does not authorize it, so the public power certainly has the right to prohibit it.
This is beneficial to Yuan Jiang.
"Thank you for your answer, Judge Zhang."
Fan Zhen bowed.
Zhang Fei nodded and smiled, "You're welcome! If you don't have any other questions, Mr. Fan, you can continue asking questions."
Although Fan Zhen did not show it, he felt a little regretful in his heart. He originally wanted to use this reason to challenge Zhang Fei, but the result was not worth the loss. However, this was not a big problem. Even if he made trouble on this point, the other party would be able to make up for it immediately, because Yuan Jiang banned the clan system, not interest, and the government made this very clear in advance.
Fan Zhen asked Yuan Jiang again: "Based on what Master Yuan said just now, all of this is due to the Qingmiao Law. Could you please explain the Qingmiao Law to me?"
"sure."
Yuan Jiang immediately explained: "The Qingmiao Law, as the name implies, is aimed at the period when the people need to rely on loans to survive during the lean period. It is precisely because of this that many unscrupulous landlords often use usury to exploit the people at this time, with interest rates often as high as double or even triple, making it impossible for many people to repay and have to sell their land at a low price and become displaced.
It was for this reason that the imperial court promulgated the Qingmiao Law, lending money to the people at a 2% interest rate to prevent them from being exploited by usury.
Fan Zhen smiled and asked, "So this method was born out of helping the people."
Yuan Jiang glanced at Fan Zhen cautiously, thought for a moment, and then nodded and said, "Yes."
I still feel a little uneasy.
Fan Zhen said: "Just now, Scholar Yuan mentioned that the reason why the clan law is prohibited from stipulating interest rates is because they use the monopoly method, first resisting the Qingmiao Law with low interest rates, and then waiting for the Qingmiao Law to be abolished by the court, they will continue to lend at high interest rates."
Yuan Jiang nodded.
Fan Zhen said: "Let's assume that the government finally allows them to set an interest rate of 1.5%. Will the people benefit from this?"
Yuan Jiang said: "This is only temporary."
Fan Zhen said: "But what I want to ask is, when the people are benefiting from it, why is the court so eager to abolish the Qingmiao Law?"