Fan Zhen's question caused the faces of many officials present to change slightly, and there was a hint of nervousness in their expressions.
Yuan Jiang just shook his head calmly and said, "I'm sorry, I don't quite understand why Mr. Fan asked this."
Fan Zhen hesitated for a moment, then asked, "Just now, Scholar Yuan said that the court would abolish the Qingmiao Law because of this? But I wonder why Scholar Yuan made such a conclusion?"
Everyone's eyes were focused on Yuan Jiang.
In fact, everyone knows the answer: you can’t make any money.
Sima Guang, Wen Yanbo and others have been clamoring about this in the court for a long time, but they are just quarreling among themselves and they will not publicize it outside. After all, this is just a struggle within the ruling class, but now there are ordinary people outside, so, can this be said
The people outside the courtyard were still confused and bewildered, but the officials looked nervous and uneasy.
The window paper is about to break!
Chen Qi couldn't help but whispered: "If we continue to ask like this, the dignity of the court will be gone."
Su Zhe glanced at Zhang Fei and said with a smile: "This is all learned from Judge Zhang."
Chen Qi was stunned and thought, this is indeed Zhang San's style.
In the past, Zhang Fei often exposed officials in court and asked questions that officials could not answer.
Wang Shen glanced at Su Zhe and asked curiously, "The Prosecutor General doesn't seem to be worried at all?"
Su Che just smiled and said, "Now that things have come to this, what's the point of worrying?"
He had anticipated this scene before the fight.
Fan Zhen’s complaint was not about whether the government had the power to prohibit them from agreeing on interest rates, because he knew in his heart that the government certainly had the power to prohibit it, and he could not win the fight on this point.
He was suing the government for abusing its power and amassing wealth, and he was definitely going to expose the other party's dirt and make the government's behavior appear guilty.
On the contrary, Li Min and his team must prove that the ban is legal and reasonable. Since their side is legal and reasonable, the other side must be wrong, and he must attack the other side.
This lawsuit is bound to hurt each other.
Yuan Jiang glanced at Fan Zhen and saw that he had a determined look on his face. He knew that this hurdle would not be easy to pass.
In fact, before this, he had already anticipated that Fan Zhen might make trouble on this point, and it depended on how deep the questioning would go. Now it seemed that he was determined to break the window paper.
Yuan Jiang could only answer truthfully: "Because the purpose of the Qingmiao Law is not only to benefit the people, but also to improve the national finances. It is a great policy that kills two birds with one stone. The court has made this very clear, and Mr. Fan should also know it."
Fan Zhen continued to ask: "In other words, as long as the court fails to make a profit, it will be abolished even if it can benefit the people?"
Yuan Jiang pondered for a moment and explained, "The court promulgated the Qingmiao Law mainly to solve the harm of high interest rates, but it also learned from the shortcomings of the Changping Warehouse Law. The Changping Warehouse Law previously provided interest-free loans, but once the government finances were tight, it became unsustainable. The Qingmiao Law provides interest-bearing loans, which can ensure that it can continue to operate.
If the people can really lend money at lower interest rates and usury is no longer rampant, then for the imperial court, there will naturally be no need for the Qingmiao Law to exist, which is also what the imperial court would like to see.
However, the other party agreed on the interest rate according to the clan law. Their purpose was not to help the people, but to undermine the Qingmiao Law. As long as the Qingmiao Law does not exist, there will be no way to check usury. They are so rampant and openly hostile to the government. How can the government remain indifferent? "
His response was clear, simple and clear, and obviously he had prepared it in advance. After all, he had expected that the other party would attack him at this point.
This immediately touched many people, and many people outside the courtyard couldn't help but nod their heads.
After all, it was not the imperial court that lent money at high interest rates before, but the big landowners.
The gentry could not help but feel disappointed, as this did not stump him.
But Fan Zhen was not discouraged. He smiled and said, "Mr. Yuan has repeatedly stressed that those gentry who agreed on interest rates according to clan law are using monopoly tactics, and their purpose is to undermine the Qingmiao Law. If we finally prohibit the gentry from agreeing on interest rates according to clan law, will the Ministry of Grain and Oil benefit from it? Or will more people come to the Ministry of Grain and Oil to borrow money?"
Yuan Jiang nodded and said, "The Qingmiao Law will certainly be better implemented."
Fan Zhen asked again: "Will the Director of the Changping Department benefit from this?"
Yuan Jiang hesitated for a moment, then nodded and said, "Yes."
Fan Zhen said: "Since the government will benefit from this, how can Yuan Xueshi explain that the government is not adopting the monopoly method by doing this? After restricting the low interest rates of the people, the government will raise the interest rate to 5%, or even higher, in order to accumulate wealth?"
Many officials immediately broke out in cold sweats.
Oh my god! Can you even ask that
Su Che's eyes lit up, thinking, worthy of being Master Fan, it turns out that what he did before was just a feint, this is the killer move, good question!
He had argued with Lu Huiqing about this issue when he was in charge of the Regulations Office of the Two Prefectures. You can agree on 20%, but you can also agree on 20%. The key is that no one can do anything about it, which is more terrible than usury.
Moreover, he expected that this situation would definitely occur, because Wang Anshi's fundamental purpose was to make money. If he could not make much money through normal borrowing, he would definitely resort to tricks.
"I object."
Li Min immediately stood up and said, "This is completely the other party's wishful thinking."
Fan Zhen immediately said: "My question is based on the reason why Yuan Xueshi banned clan-based low-interest loans, not some conjecture. If my question is not valid, then the reason why the government banned it will not be valid either."
Zhang Fei thought for a while and said, "The objection is invalid. The witness must answer this."
This question really caught Yuan Jiang off guard, because the government monopoly was completely legal and there was no reason to argue. However, it seemed a bit inappropriate to bring it up here. After all, they were now competing for the moral high ground. After a moment of hesitation, he could only avoid the main point and said, "The government did not prohibit low interest rates, but only prohibited the interest rates agreed upon by the clan law."
Fan Zhendao said: "But the gentry only restricted the landlords in their own villages, and did not restrict the people to borrow money only in their villages. However, the government could not tolerate it, and the government believed that the gentry were playing the game of monopoly. It was just that according to the Qingmiao Law, the 20% profit came first, and they agreed to 15% later. However, the government benefited greatly from this ban. So how can the government guarantee that this ban is not a monopoly?"
Yuan Jiang said: "Because the court has clear regulations."
As soon as these words were spoken, boos suddenly sounded outside the courtyard.
Yuan Jiang was very embarrassed.
The people are very clear about this. When it comes to the art of monopoly, who can beat the imperial court? What's the use of regulations
Damn it, I always pay much more than the regulations stipulate.
Can you tell me the rules
At this point, they have also suddenly realized that you say the gentry are playing the game of monopoly, how can you prove that you are not playing the game of monopoly
You are more cruel than them!
"quiet!"
Zhang Fei knocked the gavel to stop the people, and then said to Fan Zhen: "Mr. Fan, you can continue."
"Thank you!"
Fan Zhen nodded slightly, and then asked Yuan Jiang, "I heard that Scholar Yuan had just arrived in Hezhong Prefecture and had a lawsuit regarding salt notes?"
Yuan Jiang fainted when he heard this.
"I object."
Li Min stood up again and asked, "Is this question irrelevant to this case?"
Fan Zhen said slowly, "I will prove later that this question is closely related to this case."
Zhang Fei said: "Opposition is invalid."
Li Min sat down depressed.
Yuan Jiang had no choice but to nod slightly.
Fan Zhen said: "May I ask how many salt notes are sold each year and how much salt each salt note can be exchanged for? Does the court have any clear regulations?"
Yuan Jiang nodded.
Fan Zhen said: "But as far as I know, I believe that Master Yuan also knows that in fact, salt ponds in various places have not followed the regulations. Why is that?"
Many salt officials present were shocked, they were really being shot while lying down!
They glanced at Zhang Fei guiltily, and felt relieved when they saw that Zhang Fei had no expression on his face.
"Uh... cough cough." Yuan Jiang said unclearly: "There are many reasons for this, and it's hard to explain it in a short time."
There's no way to explain this.
Fan Zhendao: "But the fact is that the government did not abide by the regulations, right?"
Yuan Jiang hesitated for a moment, then nodded.
The people all understand this, and any explanation is just quibbling.
Fan Zhen asked again: "Then how can Master Yuan guarantee that when the government prohibits low-interest loans from the people, the government will not raise the interest rate?"
Yuan Jiang remained silent.
After a while, Zhang Fei looked at Yuan Jiang and said, "Please ask the witness to answer this."
Yuan Jiang was forced into a corner and could only say, "I really can't guarantee that."
If he said he could guarantee it, Fan Zhen would be able to find ten thousand facts to prove that he couldn't guarantee it at all.
Since Yuan Jiang has been an official for so many years, including county magistrate, prefect, transport envoy, etc., is it possible that this kind of phenomenon does not exist in those places
He couldn't stop it.
The fact is that it cannot be stopped.
The four little golden men shook their heads when they heard this!
This is embarrassing!
Fan Zhen said: "I have finished asking questions."
The corners of Yuan Jiang's mouth twitched a few times. At this moment, he also understood why Wang Anshi was unwilling to sit here at all costs.
It’s such torture!
At the same time, there was booing outside the hospital.
Many gentry were secretly excited when they saw that the people were all angry, and they silently cheered for Fan Zhen.
But officials like Cai Yanqing are extremely anxious. If you do this, not to mention the reputation of the court, other monopoly projects may also be attacked!
Do you want to continue the trial
Wei Yingfang and his men were secretly excited. They were very happy to see this scene. Although they were also officials, only this would provoke a fierce counterattack from the reformists. Their ultimate goal was to provoke a dispute over judicial reform and new laws, not the outcome of this lawsuit.
Qiu Zhengwen whispered: "This university scholar is quite powerful."
Lu Bangxing said: "You are talking nonsense, how can a Grand Secretary of the Hanlin Academy be an ordinary person?"
Li Min said: "It seems that we can't continue to ask Master Yuan, otherwise it will be too easy for the other party to catch us and we will be able to attack instead of defend."
Qiu Zhengwen and Lu Bangxing nodded at the same time.
The window paper has been broken. If I continue to ask Yuan Jiang questions, it will be too easy for the other party to counterattack. The government has more shit on its ass than anyone else. There is no way I can win the argument.
Suddenly, there were several bangs, and Zhang Fei frowned and shouted, "Silence! Silence!"
After the crowd outside the courtyard quieted down, Zhang Fei looked at Li Min and asked, "Does the defense have any more questions?"
Li Min said: "We have no problem for now."
Zhang Fei looked at Fan Zhen again and saw that Fan Zhen also shook his head, indicating that there was no problem. He then said to Yuan Jiang, "Thank you, Master Yuan, for testifying in court. Now, Master Yuan can go down and have a rest."
Yuan Jiang stood up slowly, but his body swayed slightly. Under the sympathetic gazes of everyone, he walked down the stairs slowly.
Next, Li Min called witnesses.
He is also an old acquaintance, Liang Youyi.
The old man came up and just glanced at Zhang Fei secretly, trying not to look him straight in the eye, for fear that he would not be able to control himself and confront him again. Competing with Zhang Fei in this court would be like lighting a lamp in a toilet.
Li Min stood up and bowed to Liang Youyi first.
Liang Youyi just glanced at him briefly.
Li Min didn't care. After all, there was a huge difference between their social classes. He pretended to glance at the document and then asked, "According to our investigation, Mr. Liang contributed money, effort, and advice to the issue of setting interest rates in various villages according to clan law. Is that true?"
Liang Youyi nodded and said, "You are right."
Qiu Zhengwen reminded quietly: "His ambiguous tone will not be conducive to our subsequent questions."
Li Min nodded slightly, and then asked gently: "Mr. Liang, please answer in a positive tone, yes or no."
Liang Youyi glanced at him with a hint of dissatisfaction, then said confidently, "Yes."
He looks open-minded and serves the country and the people.
Li Min asked, "I wonder why Mr. Liang is working so hard?"
Liang Youyi immediately said righteously: "Of course it is for the benefit of the villagers, is there any need to ask?"
Li Min asked, "It seems that Mr. Liang is also always kind and generous in the village?"
Fan Zhen frowned and was about to stand up and shout his objection to remind Liang Youyi. But Liang Youyi didn't give him the chance and said directly: "I can't say I'm kind and generous, but I usually follow the example of my ancestors and help the villagers who come to me for help."
Li Min nodded and asked, "To help the villagers, one also needs financial support. I wonder how much land Mr. Liang has at home?"
"I object."
After all, Fan Zhen was already in his 50s, so he stood up slowly, not as agile as Li Min. This time he quickly shouted first, and then slowly stood up, "What the other party asked has nothing to do with this case."
Zhang Fei nodded and said to Li Min, "Defense, this question involves the witness's personal property. Unless you can provide sufficient reasons, the witness does not need to answer."
Lu Bangxing whispered, "Don't ask these questions first, just ask the loan shark directly. This old man is easy to deal with, don't let him go easily."
Li Min nodded and said to Zhang Fei: "I take back my question."
Then, he said to Liang Youyi in a serious tone, "Mr. Liang just said that the reason why the interest rate was agreed upon according to the clan law was to benefit the villagers. I guess he was also against usury."
Liang Youyi nodded and said, "Of course."
Li Min took out a contract and said, "This is a loan contract signed between your Liang family and a villager. Please have a look, Mr. Liang."
A court officer came up immediately and handed four copies of the contract to Zhang Fei, Fan Zhen, Su Che and Liang Youyi respectively.
When Fan Zhen saw this, his expression changed slightly. He glanced at Liang Youyi and shook his head secretly.
The interest on this is estimated to be up to 200%.
Liang Youyi looked flustered after reading it, and immediately asked, "Where did you get this from?"
Li Min ignored him and continued to ask, "Is the seal on it your Liang family's?"
Liang Youyi's eyes slightly avoided, "I don't... I'm not sure."
Li Min immediately said to Zhang Fei: "Grand Judge, it is very simple to verify the authenticity of this contract. We only need to compare the seal of the Liang family with the previous contract signed by the Liang family to know the authenticity. The Royal Court can even investigate who currently owns the land on the contract."
"I object." Fan Zhen immediately said, "I wonder what this question has to do with this case?"
Li Min hurriedly said, "What is their original intention in setting interest rates according to clan law? This is the key to this case."
"invalid objection!"
Zhang Fei looked at Liang Youyi, "Mr. Liang, please confirm carefully whether this is from your Liang family's contract?"
Liang Youyi pretended to look at it again, nodded and said, "Yes... it came from my family. But I don't know, because my son is in charge of all the family affairs."
Li Min said: "In this contract, the interest agreed upon has reached more than twice the principal after our calculation, which is definitely usury. May I ask if Mr. Liang agrees with this practice?"
There was a sudden uproar outside the courtyard.
Liang Youyi immediately said: "Of course I don't agree, but I am old and my energy is limited. I can't take care of so many things. But after I go home today, I will immediately find out about this matter."
Speaking of the latter part, he seemed to be willing to sacrifice his own relatives for the sake of justice.
Li Min asked again: "As far as we know, the Liang family obtained at least 356 acres of land last year by lending at high interest rates. Does Mr. Liang know?"
Liang Youyi seemed very impatient and said, "I have already said that I am not involved in this family's affairs, so how can I know about it? Don't wrongly accuse me."
Li Min was not discouraged by this and continued to ask, "Does Mr. Liang know how many concubines he has?"
Just as Fan Zhen was about to object, Liang Youyi spoke up first, "Asshole! This is my personal matter, what does it have to do with you? You are just seeking revenge."
Revenge for personal gain? Zhang Fei was stunned. Was he making a veiled attack on me? Then I would really take revenge for personal gain.
Fan Zhen hurriedly shouted: "I object."
Zhang Fei couldn't help but frown and look at Li Min again, "Defense, what does this question have to do with this case?"
Li Min hurriedly explained to Zhang Fei: "In response to Judge Zhang, according to my investigation, Mr. Liang has twelve concubines, seven of whom were loan sharks who paid off their debts. Therefore, we believe that Mr. Liang is not completely ignorant of this."
As soon as these words were spoken, the whole audience was in an uproar.
"Really?" Zhang Fei asked, "Do you have any evidence?"
"some."
Li Min immediately took out four copies of the evidence and presented them to them.
After Zhang Fei read it, he asked Liang Youyi, "Mr. Liang, do you know all this?"
Liang Youyi's face flushed red, and he thought to himself, where did these bastards get this evidence from? Could there be a traitor in the family? Now he couldn't deny it. He couldn't say that they were all my son's concubines, and that I just slept with them occasionally. He avoided the main point and said, "I don't understand what this has to do with this case?"
Li Min said, "Mr. Liang just said that the reason for using clan law to agree on interest rates is to oppose usury and benefit the villagers. But from the facts, your Liang family has benefited from usury many times, including Mr. Liang himself. I wonder how Mr. Liang would explain everything?"
Liang Youyi was already sweating profusely, and the corners of his mouth kept twitching. He had no idea that the other party would attack him from this angle.
In previous trials, the ear pen had rarely appeared on the scene, and he had never witnessed such a scene where swords were drawn and blood was shed.
Since you can't explain it, just pretend to be deaf and dumb!
Seeing that Liang Youyi couldn't get away with it, Li Min started to play dead again, so he said, "The reason why Mr. Liang was keen on agreeing on interest with the clan law is because the Qingmiao Law will seriously harm the interests of the Liang family. That's why Mr. Liang thought of this method to undermine the Qingmiao Law. This is your real purpose."
"I object." Fan Zhen quickly raised his hand and shouted.
Li Min sat down, "I've finished asking questions."
Playing dead
This is of no use in the imperial court. After all, a lawsuit is not about debate, but about convincing the judge. Li Min's goal has been achieved.
This was not difficult to see from the expressions of the assistant judges on the side. They all looked at Liang Youyi with disdain.
Zhang Fei looked at Fan Zhen again and asked, "Mr. Fan, do you have any questions?"
Fan Zhen glanced at Liang Youyi, who seemed to be ten years older, and couldn't help but sigh secretly, then shook his head and said, "I don't have anything to ask."
At this time, Ma Xiaoyi suddenly came to the court and said, "Judge Zhang, a witness suddenly fainted."
Zhang Fei asked: "Who?"
Ma Xiaoyi said: "Xu Qingnian."
Upon hearing this, Zhang Fei couldn't help but glance at Fan Zhen, who looked a little embarrassed.
But there is nothing we can do. You guys attacked me so ruthlessly and targeted my weak spots. Who would dare to come up to me
After thinking for a while, Zhang Fei glanced at the sky again and said, "It's getting late. We will stop the trial here for the morning and continue in the afternoon. Court is adjourned."