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Wang Fuzhi and Liu Zongzhou argued fiercely over the issue of "strictly governing officials". On the surface, this seemed to be a specific issue, but in fact, it involved whether to use Confucian "benevolence" to influence officials or to use Legalist severe punishments to deter them.
It is essentially a dispute between Confucianism and Legalism.
More and more people joined the debate, and the majority supported Liu Zongzhou's guidance and influence with benevolence.
Qin Mu was not surprised at all.
Although Wang Fuzhi was isolated, he was not completely alone. People like Xie Jinglun stood on his side, presenting facts and reasoning together, refuting his opponents one by one, and trying their best to promote the governing philosophy of "leniency to nourish the people and strictness to govern the officials" to Qin Mu.
Finally, Yang Tinglin even stood up to defend Wang Fuzhi, saying, "Your Majesty, Mr. Wang proposed to be lenient to support the people and strict to govern the officials. I think there is some truth to this. Although the cruel punishment of skinning and stuffing straw into people during the Hongwu reign of the Ming Dynasty is not advisable, the gentlemen of ancient times were all lenient to others and strict with themselves. Officials should also have this gentlemanly demeanor!"
Even if the people are treacherous, the harm they cause is limited. Officials receive salaries from the emperor and have a heavy responsibility to govern a region. If they are corrupt and pervert the law, they will bring disaster to the region. Therefore, it is not an exaggeration for Wang Xueshi to advocate leniency in supporting the people and strictness in governing officials.
Furthermore, the Confucian teachings of self-cultivation, family management, state governance, and world peace place the highest priority on self-cultivation. If an official can strictly abide by his duties and maintain an upright conduct, why should he fear the strictness of the law? "
Huang Zongxi immediately came out and said, "Your Majesty, severe punishments are only used to govern chaotic times. Now that the world is at peace and the four seas are at peace, it is inappropriate to govern the country with strict laws and severe punishments.
Mr. Wang, what Minister Yang said is not without reason, but it is only suitable for the chaotic times in the late Ming Dynasty. Now that the people of our Great Qin are settled and the administration is clean, it would be counterproductive to impose harsh punishments again!
Throughout the dynasties, except for the early Ming Dynasty, which used severe punishments to govern officials, all dynasties have been lenient, clean, light in punishments, and light in taxes and labor. The Wenjing and Zhenguan eras that Your Majesty admires are no exceptions to this.
Liu Zongzhou also said: "During the reigns of Emperors Wen, Jing and Zhenguan, the emperors valued leniency and simplicity and focused on peace and tranquility. This quickly restored the country's strength and people's livelihood, and greatly increased the country's strength. However, after Emperors Wen and Jing, there was the Rebellion of the Seven Kings, and after Zhenguan, there was the chaos caused by the Wu family.
Looking at the Hongwu period in the early Ming Dynasty, officials were strictly disciplined and kings were favored. Officials were punished with harsh punishments such as skinning and stuffing straw into their bodies, while kings were given generous gifts. After Hongwu, it was inevitable that the Prince of Yan would quell the rebellion and replace the king with a minister. This failure of morality and law can serve as a lesson for the past, and Your Majesty must take it as a warning! "
Qin Mu did not express his opinion. He just asked in a gentle voice: "What do you think Liu Bianxiu should do to avoid repeating the mistakes of the Han, Tang, and Ming dynasties?"
Liu Zongzhou immediately replied, "Your Majesty, every sage ruler who governs the world promotes benevolence, justice, and morality, and advocates moral governance. In benevolent governance, virtue is the main thing and punishment is the auxiliary. A ruler should abide by the classics and exercise power, be strict with oneself and lenient with others. Inspire people with morality and win the hearts of the people with the kingly way. Use rituals to determine the hierarchy and order of the world. Only in this way can the world be in order, and the scholars, farmers, merchants and workers can each do their work in peace, and the country and the people can live in peace."
After all the talk, it all comes back to the dispute between Confucianism, Taoism and Legalism.
Wang Fuzhi deeply detested the Confucians' empty talk about benevolence and righteousness but their lack of emphasis on practical work.
Seeing that Liu Zongzhou was emphasizing benevolence, righteousness, and morality, and avoiding being pragmatic, he immediately retorted: "What Liu Bianxiu said is biased. Take the early Ming Dynasty for example. The Ming Taizu established the eight-legged essay, emphasized Zhu Xi and Cheng Yixue, and emphasized the principles of monarch and minister, father and son, respect for the elderly and the young, and the principles of ethics and morality. Wasn't there an incident in which the Prince of Yan killed the monarch as a minister?"
"That's because Emperor Taizu of the Ming Dynasty used harsh laws and lacked humaneness."
"But did Emperors Wen, Jing and Zhenguan lose their benevolence?"
"The Wen, Jing and Zhenguan periods did not lose their benevolence, but they lost their moral principles."
At this point in the heated debate, it sounded like Wang Fuzhi was at a disadvantage, but he was still full of confidence, which made people a little confused.
He straightened his clothes and said in a loud voice: "According to what Editor Liu said, as long as we practice benevolence and respect the principles of morality, there will be no rebellion?"
"That's right!" Liu Zongzhou answered loudly, neither avoiding nor giving way.
Wang Fuzhi smiled and asked, "From what Liu Bianxiu said, I don't deny that the Hong Dynasty valued moral principles, but it lacked benevolence."
"Yes!"
"However, Editor Liu said before that during the Hongwu period, the emperor was strict with officials and kind to the kings. He used harsh punishments such as skinning and stuffing straw on officials, and gave generous gifts to the kings. This shows that the Emperor Taizu was less benevolent and kind to officials, not the kings.
He treated the kings with great generosity and kindness. In other words, Hongwu treated the kings with both moral principles and kindness, but the one who rebelled was the King of Yan. I wonder how Liu Bianxiu could justify this?"
Wang Fuzhi's rebuttal was indeed brilliant, and it left the master Liu Zongzhou speechless and unable to answer for a while.
Wang Fuzhi bowed to Qin Mu in a victorious manner and said in a clear voice: "Your Majesty, from this we can see that being benevolent, respecting principles and morals, and guiding the people to be good are what a monarch should follow. However, relying solely on benevolence, morality, principles and morals is not enough to ensure the stability of the country and peace for generations to come. Therefore, laws and regulations must be implemented to strictly restrain and prevent it from happening!"
Wang Fuzhi did not completely deny Confucianism, but he emphasized Legalism more and used the legal system to determine everything.
Of course, his central idea is still "leniency in nurturing the people and strictness in governing officials."
In other words, his idea was to treat the people with kindness and education. However, in terms of official administration, he proposed to use strict laws to restrain officials and clean up the bureaucracy.
In his opinion, no matter how bad a person is, the damage he can cause is limited.
If an official is bad, he will bring disaster to the people.
Deep down, Qin Mu admired his philosophy of governing the country very much.
But Qin Mu also knew that a monarch should not be too idealistic, and the foundation of a monarch's rule lies in officials, not the people.
If officials are treated too harshly, the foundation of rule will inevitably be shaken.
During the Hongwu era, he handed all military power to his sons. Officials had limited military power, and no one could rebel even though he implemented harsh laws.
But now he only has one son, Qin Ye. If he does the same as Emperor Hongwu, the consequences will be hard to imagine.
Therefore, although Wang Fuzhi's way of governing the country is good, it is somewhat inappropriate. It requires national stability and can only be implemented after the Qin orthodoxy is deeply rooted in the hearts of the people.
Shang Yang also said about the idea of ruling the country by law: "When the law is unjust, it can rule chaos. When the law is unjust, good words are used. When the country is in chaos, words are too many and the army is weak. When the law is clear, it can rule the country sparingly, and words are used to stop the country. When the country is sparingly, words stop and the army is strong. Therefore, when you rule a big country, the country is small; when you rule a small country, the country is big... ... A benevolent person can benevolent to others, but cannot make others benevolent. A righteous person can love others, but cannot make others love him. Therefore, benevolence and righteousness are not enough to rule the world! Therefore, killing people is not violence, and lenient punishment is not benevolence.
Qin Mu personally thinks that this is absolutely classic.
Those who do more talk less, and those who talk more do less.
A country that only talks and does nothing is weak; a country that does more and talks less is strong.
These theories are really a slap in the face of Confucianism. Most Confucianists are good at talking but have no strategy in their minds. They only emphasize benevolence, righteousness, and morality, which easily leads to hypocrisy.
Killing people is not violence, and lenient punishment is not benevolence. In the final analysis, the way of Shang Yang is that great benevolence is not benevolence.
Of course, politics itself is hypocritical.
So, you can't say that Confucianism is useless.
There are some things you can do but cannot say. In all dynasties, people have emphasized benevolence, justice, morality and virtue, but in fact, the rule of the country is supported by the legalists.
Qin Mu would not explicitly express his support for someone like Wang Fuzhi who clearly proposed the rule of law.
Among the more than 200 people who participated in the imperial lecture, only a few expressed their support for him.
On the contrary, it attracted a lot of people to attack it.
The greatest characteristic of Confucianism is the ability to speak eloquently, quoting from classics.
At the imperial lecture, the war was reignited. Poor Wang Fuzhi was beaten up by the crowd and had no way to cope with it. Fortunately, Xie Jinglun inherited Li Zhi's theory, and Li Zhi was also a materialist who focused on reality. Therefore, Xie Jinglun always stood on Wang Fuzhi's side and fought against the crowd together.
Of course, not everyone rejects Wang Fuzhi's teachings. Officials like Yang Tinglin believe that his theory of governing the country is consistent with the idea of being lenient to others and strict with oneself.
In addition, not all the people present were Confucianists. Fu Qingzhu, who advocated the Taoist principle of inaction, and Gu Yanwu, who opposed Zhu Xi's Neo-Confucianism, all had their own debates.
The fierce debate at the imperial lecture was truly moving.
Qin Mu was deeply moved after reading it. If Xu Guangqi had not died, and if they had had a debate together with Xu Guangqi, who "regarded mathematics as the foundation of all other natural sciences and engineering", it would have been even more interesting.
Well, Qu Shisi also advocated Western learning, and he had been persuaded by Wang Fuzhi to submit to the Qin Dynasty.
It seems that we should also invite Qu Fangsi’s Western learning faction to join the debate!
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ps: Oh, the more I write, the less confident I am. Why is it so deserted? Where are your monthly tickets? No one supports me!
Please give me a monthly ticket!
Please give me a monthly ticket! (To be continued...)
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